This was the final session and it was a discussion with all the plenary speakers… this set of notes is very incomplete as there was a lot said and much was good, but I’ve captured a good bit (plus I wasn’t there right at the beginning)

Question: What is discouraging and encouraging to you right now (started in progress… missed the beginning of this)

(David Taylor and Eugene Peterson) More important to go slow, do less, and spend more time with people.

(Andy Crouch) The parts of the church that tries to represent itself and mediated on screen – it’s very discouraging.

(John Witvliet) Discouraging – individuals in churches that have closed themselves off from learning – as if discipleship is static. Exciting – so many of the conversations here have been open to the future, to the learning that so many of you anticipate next week. What is God teaching me here and what will that change in me next week. There is an eschatological urgency toward growing and learning. (John)

(Eugene Peterson) When I felt discouraged or distressed, I would visit people at home. I’m not a social creature, but it took intentionality. They’re hungry, they’re living out their faith or they’re not. The discouraging thing for me is that I’ve grown up in a culture of pastors that have thrown out theology and taken up sociology as their mentors

(Barbara Nicolosi) I’m not prone to discouragement, but I’m prone to boredom. There are a whole lot of people who know see how important culture is and hope someone will make the sacrifice to save it – but many Christians families are just hoping they make it through unscathed. Encouraging is the interdenominational working together that is happening. Many evangelicals would say to me – wow you’re a Catholic and you actually seem to love the Lord. It was more important for the evangelical for me to say that I would say that I’d accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior… that is becoming less and less important while the life in Christ is important and evident. What we are doing here is beautiful. I love to hear you sing. I hope the Catholics will do more of that (our music is horrible right now).

(Jeremy Begbie) This morning while eating breakfast I saw on the news that a truck overturned, bursts into flames and the driver died – video on TV was played over and over again this morning as we watched this man plunge to his death something like 10 or 12 times. This is incredibly discouraging. Encouraging – Leslie Newbiggin asked are you optimistic or pessimistic – Jesus is Lord, that is not something I can be pessimistic about.

(David Taylor) Discouraging is the busy-ness of our lives. It scares me. I preach it and talk about it and I find that I’m still firing on 18 cylinders. Encouraging is that you are not alone in the fire you have in your bones. It’s not up to me – hallelujah for that. There are so many people doing good work – there are other kindred spirits doing and longing for the same things. Pray for your brothers and sisters you may not know and that God would sustain them.

Question: Should art be evangelistic?

(David Taylor) Art can and should serve evangelism and mission and it should be done well. It should not only be used for this, but it can and should be – but done well.

(Jeremy Begbie) The mission is God’s and we share in it. I agree with Andy – done well and not the only thing).

(John Witvliet) There is tremendous potential in the development and creation of art but also in its reception. Thousands who would refuse spiritually intimate conversation, but would be powerfully moved in art. Deeper communities of reception.

(David Taylor) Art in service of evangelism should not be viewed narrowly. There is a whole spectrum of what could be evangelistic art. Feel free and be at rest.

Question: If pastors are supposed to slow down… how will artists submit to being pastored in the ordinary? Can artists submit to the process of the ordinary and the not extraordinary? Can not their art be more deeply purified and more powerful?

(David Taylor) If you are an artist who feel called to ordinary quiet rhythms – you are a welcome part of the Christian community. May those around you honor and respect the boundary of that and receive the fruit and feel refreshed of the ordinary.

(Andy Crouch) Beautifully said and at great risk for those of us who see ourselves as special. Sometimes what happens is that some of us with artistic gifts try to protect ourselves by showing how we are different than those that are normal. It’s a fear that I’ll lose my specialness if I do those ordinary things (at least for me). It’s much more romantic for the need of the artist to connect with the poor… what about connecting with the middle class and the ordinary. Sometimes I think the kenosis or the emptying of the artist is the willingness to just be with the ordinary. God will protect your specialness through that contact with the ordinary because they are just as human and just as created in the image of God.

(Barbara Nicolosi) I’m going to say “no” and good leadership is identifying everyone’s genius and empowering them in the area of their genius. I started working with the homeless and within four months I was writing a video documentary. I can get 40 people to hand out soup – but you can do something else for us. Even though you can get the artist in the nursery, but they still have to create the art and you’re burdening them double (possibly) and they want to create. You should let them create. My poor are the people of Hollywood and if you abandon them to come here – who will be with them there? We all have our poor that we are well-suited to speak to and lead. That’s who God made us to be. Rather than run to Tijuana, stay here and write another 400 pages.

(David Taylor) I have to disagree with you. Artist must know how to be human and they can only do that when they encounter the ordinary. I want to encourage artists on a seasonal basis to work in the children’s ministry and it allows you to be alive. Our business as artist is to pay attention and to make sense of what it means to be human. But if you only hang around with artist, you don’t know what human beingness actually is – you are only exposed to a small slice of humanity. Your art will have more richness.

Question: What if you try all sorts of art and discover you have no talent?

(Eugene Peterson) We all need spiritual directors. Many of us have them and don’t have a name for them. They will listen to us and tell us that we’re really good at this, but most of us are pretty damn ordinary. There are people around who we can look to and say bring out the uniqueness in the body of Christ. It’s not bad to be ordinary – it’s bad to be discouraged that you are. We’re all in a position to do this for each other. What it means to be a servant of Christ – what our role is… sometimes it’s having a role without having a role.

(John Witvliet) Think of the amateurs. One of my kids is talented, but I want them all to continue to draw. Let’s not discourage the pervasiveness of all art.

(Barbara Nicolosi) God created beings to create for others to say, “This is good.” Emily Dickinson once described that all you need for art is a clover, a bee, and a field to which her muse responded… “what’s in it for the clover?” Dickinson’s muse (her close friend) at times did not enjoy being the clover, but Dickinson so needed her muse. She almost went crazy when her friend stepped back from her role for a season. If it is your job to simply say that something is good, do it with joy. When God created creation, He created and said it was good. He then created us and we both need to create and to say it is good.

(Andy Crouch) A man in our church loves to play piano, but he’s unable to spend much time on it and has a regular job. He’s not terribly accomplished and he put on a recital & played it adequately and he wanted to share his love for Beethoven with a few of his friends. Knowing the limit of his ability, he performed this for a group of close friends – it actually takes humility to do this. My son loved the concert and I wrote a brief note to this man thanking him for this and this note meant so much to him and he said he would cherish this for a long time. I had a chance to be the clover.

(Jeremy Begbie) Since September, I have been a part of a violin making workshop. Quiet, unrushed, patient, and slow work. At a point, I asked the man in charge how I was doing – whether I was too slow or too fast. He responded by saying that I wasn’t too slow nor was I too fast… I was just average. This bothered me, but God has used this to remind me that I don’t have to be exceptional.

Question: John, if you’re putting together a symposium on the arts, what would you do to make it more culturally and ethnically diverse?

(John Witvliet) Has to be personal and relational. I once got an opportunity to visit the Navajo nation in Arizona and was able to speak with a young leader there about ministry and training having to do with worship. In this conversation, he expressed his utter frustration that at the many conferences and workshops he had been to, they were focused on being told what was good for him. There are people that work in 14 languages within 10 miles of where I teach in Grand Rapids, MI. This young man has a vision for creating these small collaborative workshops for people to learn together – I think this is a direction we should consider to not squelch diversity.

Question: What are the dangers faced when an artist is successful and how does a courageous pastor shepherd them?

(Barbara Nicolosi) Hollywood can destroy a life. What makes them go bad? You do. You turn them into gods and touch them and gape at them. You try to make your object to consume. We should be praying for them. They are people and it’s us who has to change. We, as Christians, are not immune to this problem – we create our own rock stars and create the same environments. It is not their fault – it’s your fault.

Question: What advice can you give to pastors to start modestly.

(Andy Crouch) Talk about art and why it’s important or why it moves you. Build them into talk about like it’s a normal part of life.

(Barbara Nicolosi) Commission art and I mean commission it – not by calling for it on Tuesday and saying, “On Sunday we’d like… X.” What you do is decide that you want something and tell the congregation the vision for what you want to do and that you need $5,000 to do this thing. You raise the money and you ask people to come and pitch ideas. You select an idea and you give the $5,000 to that person to craft this art. Commission beautiful art and take it seriously.

(John Witvliet) Pastoral care. Artist – ask the artist how their gift as an artist might assist when I perform pastoral care (nursing homes, prisons, hospitals, etc.)

(David Taylor) Invite artists to your house and open a dialog.